Gospodine Moco, Tvoja braća Adventisti te nisu dobro učili. Sve što
je dragi Gospod Bog stvorio i sve što i danas stvara je dobro, lepo i savršeno. Ona druga strana kvari ono dobro i lepo i kvariće sve do onog časa kada Bog bude rekao dosta. Kada će Bog izreči tu reč
dosta, ja ne znam. Tama nije oličenje zla, tama ne asocira zlo. Tama se može iskoristiti u prikazanju zla ali samo u smislu različitosti, samo metaforistički. Tama ili mrak nam daje ili uslovljava bolji
odmor i san. U mraku je svetlost prepoznatljivija, upaljenu sveću
po mraku možemo primetiti na daljini od više kilometara a danju samo na nekoliko desetinu metara. Vrlo dobro nam je poznat dualistički pravac iz filozofije ali sa aspekta teologije: zlo i sve ono što je vezano za zlo, biće uništeno. Tama nije nikakvo zlo i nema potrebe
da se uništi. Jedna druga važna stvar je: duhovnim bićima tama ne smeta, ljudi će postati nova stvorenja i neće im više smrt nauditi
akamoli tama. I danas mnogim životinjama i pticama tama ne smeta.
Gospodine Moco, tema Ti je odlična, nadam se da sam Te zadovoljio mojim komentarom, s velikim poštovanjem primi moj pozdrav, od srca,
Cartensius.

aorist ima još uvek strasan efekat na siroke mase.

ekskluziva za stiva od kojih ti se tresu gace.

Za poštovanog Gospodina Mocu,
rekao sam i ponoviću. Tema „Svetlost i Tama”, je odlična zamisao da
se diskutanti zaintrigiraju pa da što masovnije učestvuju u ovoj
raspravi, koja naizgled, sadrži kontradiktornosti zbog opažajne
različitosti ili, kao što je već pomenuto, da se svetlost i tama
nalazi na spisku filozofskog pravca „dualizam”. Smatram da će biti
korisno o ovom predmetu diskutirati jer se o njemu mnogo govori i pominje u Svetim Spisima. Za mene bi bilo interesantno ako bi se i
cenjena Gospoda: G.n Balamory i G.n Tyr uključili sa svojim
komentarima.

Vrlo zanimljvo pitanje, koje si mi postavio, gospodine Moco!
moca77
(Obozavalac)14. mart 2011. u 14.21
@Cartensius jel ti svetkujes subotu?

Iako pitanje nije vezano za Tvoj naslov, pitam ja Tebe Moco:
-zašto bih ja trebao da svetkujem subotu?
-da li treba svetkovati subotu?
-da li je subota za Jevreje ili i za Hrišćane?
-pošto ima i Hrišćana koji svetkuju subotu, treba li ih zato
osuđivati?
-da li je svetkovanje subote uslov za ulazak u Božje carstvo?

Imao bih još sličnih pitanja postaviti, za ovu priliku toliko.
Smatram, poštovani Moco, da sam ovim pitanjima zadovoljio Tvoju radoznalost, s druge strane, nisam ja neka poznata ličnost da bi
se mogli ljudi po meni i mojim stavovima vladati i upravljati.
Da li bi Ti nešto značilo: ako svetkujem ili ako ne svetkujem?
Da li bi se razočarao ili obradovao?
Vidiš li da ja u takve polemike ne ulazim, iako sam kao Ti jako
radoznao i postavljam razna pitanja.
Pozdrav, Cartensius.

Moco, Cartenius ti je lepo rekao i ujedno dao odgovor u svojim pitanjima. A drugo, sto te bas toliko interesuje da li on svetkuje ili ne svetkuje subotu?
Ako svetkuje Bozji sveti dan subotu, da li che kao diskutant i chovek izgubiti svoj ugled i dostojanstvo u tvojim ochima?

Sada bi i ti mogao odgovoriti na njegova pitanja koja ti je postavio.

Svako dobro u Hristu

Poštovani Moco,
tražiš od mene odgovor na Tvoje postavljeno pitanje a potom i
komentar. Odgovor je: ja svetkujem Dan Gospodnji!
Nadam se da si sada zadovoljan mojim odgovorom.
Komentarisati hoću. Sada odgovori i Ti na moja pitanja i biće puno komentara.
Ako mi daš Tvoj imel, odgovoriću na svako Tvoje pitanje, naravno ako znam. Poprilično davno, predložio sam Ti da se vratiš Tvojoj Majci
Crkvi. Ako su moje informacije potpune i tačne, Ti istražuješ, tragaš
i tražiš pravu istinu. Ako iskreno tražiš, naćićeš je. Ako je i to tačno da si do sada promenio nekoliko sekti, verovatno si se uverio
da je ISTINA u Isusu Hristu a ne u religioznim institucijama.
Pozdrav, Cartensius.

Pomaže Bog Moco,
konfesija ili ispovedanje se obavlja pred jednom osobom a ne pred
celim svetom. Nemoj uopšte sumnjati u moju iskrenost Moco, ja želim
i hoću da ti sve moje podatke dam, ne znam šta će ti to značiti jer
ja nisam neka markantna i značajna ličnost čime bi se težina mojih reči negde navele i imale poseban značaj. Zato sam ti predložio da mi
daš Tvoj imel. Nisi mi odgovorio na moja pitanja. Ako znaš kako glasi
simvol vere „VERUJEM”, onda znaš i odgovor na Tvoje pitanje. Za mene
ima veći značaj kako neka verska organizacija poštuje principe i
načela koje je Bog dao ljudima od atributa kojima se verske organizacije radi identifikovanja prezivaju. Samo ime, naziv...neće
nikoga spasiti. Prava vera, milost Gospodnja i Njegova prevelika
ljubav koju je i praktično pokazao na KRSTU, kojeg danas mnogi preziru i odbacuju, je ono čime se spašavamo. Moco, svačije „OSANA”,
mora da prođe kroz plamen i oganj u kome se „možda” i Ti trenutno nalaziš, ali, „...drugoga IMENA pod nebom NEMA, osim Gospoda Isusa Hrista...”, izvinjavam se zbog odstupanja od originalnog izvornog teksta kojeg navodim, nadajući se da sam smisao toga tačno dao.
Najiskrenije i najsrdačnije, Moco, s poštovanjem primi pozdrav od
moje malenkosti, Cartensius.

@Ja sam majstor
Subota nije data od početka, tek je data kad je Mojsije primio 10 zapovest. Subota je i jesta važeća za Israel.
Nigde pre toga ne čitamo, da su ljudi svih naroda svetili subotu, niti su znali za to.

Cenjeni Moco,
očigledan je nesporazum, „Cart. niste me razumeli”, to isto i ja tvrdim, pa da analiziramo:

-rekao sam: ...ispovedanje se obavlja pred jednom osobom a ne pred
celim svetom.
-ovde se misli na ispovedanje a ne na krštenje!
-kada je reč o krštenju, potpuno si u pravu i tačno je to da su tada bile prisutne osobe koje si pomenuo.
-insistiram na iskrenost, u koju Ti sumnjaš, obećavajući da sam spreman otkriti sav moj identitet ali ne celom svetu, već samo Tebi,
jer samo Ti to želiš, to je prvi važniji razlog, drugi za ovu priliku nisu bitni ni važni. Jedini način da to uradim je imel, daj mi ga pa ćeš sve znati o meni.
-Zašto me optužuješ:
-„Lukavo i perfidno ste izbegli odgovor na moja jednostavna pitanja”.
-što se Majke Crkve tiče, dao sam sledeći odgovor iz „CREDO”(VJERUJU)
pa evo citata:„...u jednu svetu, sabornu i apostolsku Crkvu”. Preuzeto
iz kalendara.
Ja sam pokušao i odgovorio na Tvoja pitanja, hoćeš li i Ti?
Sada kažeš (pišeš) „Ne zanima mene da li se vi klanjate suboti, nedelji ili možda sredi na četvrtku, ne interesuje me da li ste vi pravoslavac, adventista ili možda musliman. Ne zanima me čak ni u šta verujete,...”, kako ovo tumačiš?
Da li sam neiskren, lukav, perfidan?
preispitaj ponovo, poštovani Moco!

Pozdrav, Cartensius.

Draga sestro Limaker. Ne znam koliko poznajes Sveto pismo, ali ja sam se lično osvedocio i uverio da je sama Subota od samog stvaranja data za sve ljude i narode, ne samo za Jevreje i da je kao takva posvecena i sveta. Dokaz: Prva knjiga Mojsijeva 2, 2.3: I svrši Bog do sedmoga dana dela svoja, koja učini; i počinu u sedmi dan od svih dela svojih, koja učini;
I blagoslovi Bog sedmi dan, i posveti ga, jer u taj dan počinu od svih dela svojih, koja učini;

Ovo je samo mali broj svih onih mesta da ne citiram sada gde se svetost Subote spominje. A posto je ona spomenuta i u 10 Bozjih zapovesti u dekalogu sigurno je da je vecita, posto je sav Bozji zakon vecit i nepromenljiv. Sve do Sinaja nije bilo potrebe da se ista o njoj piše, kao i mnoge druge stvari jer su bile prenosene usmenim putem. A ako je Bozji zakon vecan i nepromenljiv, nakon kakvog rasudjivanja, shvatanja i sa cije strane dolazi do ideje da se može nešto sto je Bog rekao da je vecno, da se menja od strane ljudi?
A sam Gospod Bog je rekao da se ne menja nijedno slovo niti promeni, inače će biti proklet ko tako uradi.
Zamolio bih te da malo bolje i dublje proucis Bozju svetu reč, jer samo tada ćeš moći videti mnoge stvari jasnije, nego li samo kroz prizmu raznih ljudskih prica i shvatanja. Bog sa tobom

The Book of Genesis Is Law

Some still feel that a command to keep the Sabbath and that punishments for non-compliance were in effect during the period covered by the Book of Genesis even though the text does not mention it. They imagine that Genesis is not explicit in such matters; it only skims events of history prior to the Exodus and that Moses had no time to record a Sabbath command or its punishments. This reasoning is impossible. One major fact must be understood concerning the Book of Genesis. The book is not a simple historical narrative; it is something far more. Genesis is a book of law, that is certainly true. The Book of Genesis is as much a part of the Law as Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, or Deuteronomy. Indeed, the Jews have customarily called the first five books of the Old Testament by the name „The Torah” which means „The Law.” Genesis is nothing less than a codification of law in historical form.

This fact can be proved from the New Testament. Paul said to the Galatians: „Tell me, you that desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?” (Galatians 4:21). Paul then mentioned Abraham and two mothers of his children, Hagar and Sarah (Galatians 4:22–31). The references of Paul were to the Book of Genesis, and he said those illustrations were in the law. The Book of Genesis is as much law as the other books of Moses! Christ said that circumcision was given by the fathers, but also the rite was found in the Law of Moses (John 7:22–23). Moses wrote Genesis which shows the introduction of circumcision, and it was part of Moses’ law. The ceremony was a part of the Torah.

What does this fact have to do with the Sabbath question? Much in every way. Since all of Genesis is a book of law, all its many statements must be reckoned as laws. They cannot be interpreted as mere vague assumptions, as implied declarations, or as supposed propositions. As a book of law, Genesis shows exact legal definitions which governed people under the dispensation of time which it covered. And in all fifty chapters of that book of law there is not one command showing that the Sabbath had to be observed like the Sabbath which Moses commanded in the time of the Exodus. Unless distinct commands are shown in Genesis there can be no force of law for such assumed commands as claimed by some Christians.

Some have read the later commands of Moses (those given at the time of the Exodus) and have tried to read those laws back into Genesis. But this is not proper, nor is it legal. That is like saying the United States celebrated Lincoln’s birthday as a legal holiday in the time of George Washington. Such propositions are absurd, and using them is not being fair with the scriptural revelation.

The truth is, nowhere does the Book of Genesis show the Sabbath as a command for mankind to keep. Nor does it say there are punishments for not observing it. Since Genesis is a book of law, we should not step out of its legal bounds and assume that such commands or punishments are there. The patriarchs did not wrest the law through such assumptions.

When Was the Weekly Sabbath Day Commanded?

We are told precisely when the Sabbath day became a command of God. This legislation to Israel is recorded in Exodus chapter 16, about three weeks before the code of the Ten Commandments was given (Exodus 16:22–31). This is why the fourth command said, „Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy” (Exodus 20:8). The Sabbath day had been commanded only a short time before and they were to remember it. Israel had not known that the 7th day was to be kept — without any work being done on it — until it was revealed in Exodus chapter 16.

Nehemiah made this plain. Recalling the early history of Israel, he reminded the Jews of his time (5th century BC), how God had revealed the weekly Sabbath to their ancestors at the Exodus. „And made known unto them [at that time] your holy sabbath …” (Nehemiah 9:14). Nehemiah knew that Israel only received the Sabbath as a command at the Exodus. That was when it was made known to them!

The prophet Ezekiel said practically the same thing as Nehemiah. Speaking of the time of the Exodus, God said through Ezekiel:

„Moreover also I gave them [Israel] my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them [Israel], that they might know that I am YHWH that sanctifies them.”

*

Ezekiel 20:12

The Sabbath did not become a „sign” until the time of Moses. That is what Ezekiel says, and Moses recorded the same thing (Exodus 31:13–18). Before the time of Moses, the Sabbath was not a law of God that He demanded be kept. The Book of Genesis shows the original 7th day of creation as a rest period for God. Man had been created only the day before and needed no rest from labor because he had done no work. Later, in the time of Moses when the Sabbath was made known to Israel and it became a command, it was not meant to dominate man even though there were severe penalties for breaking it. Jesus said, „The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath” (Mark 2:27). This shows that the Sabbath was intended as a blessing to physical Israel even when it became a command.

In the Book of Genesis, however, there were no directions from God that the 7th day had to be observed. And though we are told that Abraham obeyed God’s voice, charge, commandments, statutes, and laws, the Sabbath was not within the compass of those words. Look at the words carefully.

* God’s voice told Abraham to leave his country for another land, and Abraham obeyed the voice of God (Genesis 12:1–4).

* Isaac charged Jacob not to marry any Canaanite woman (Genesis 28:1), as Abraham formerly followed God’s charges in the same thing (Genesis 24:1–4).

* God commanded Abraham to walk in the ways of justice and judgment (Genesis 18:19) and he kept those commands.

* God’s statutes concerning the building of altars and the sacrificing of animals were obeyed by Abraham (Genesis 12:7; 22:9).

* God also gave a law to Abraham that he and all his children were to be circumcised (Genesis 17:9–14), and he diligently performed that law.

In the Book of Genesis Abraham kept God’s voice, charge, commands, statutes, and laws. But those commandments and laws which Abraham observed were not the Ten Commandments code given to Israel in the time of Moses. To say this is to do a great injustice to scriptural revelation. There is not a hint in Genesis that the codified Ten Commandments as a legal document was in force. This would be reading into an earlier text what is not there. Again, it is like saying that Lincoln’s birthday was a national holiday of the United States in the time of George Washington. Though several principles of the Ten Commandments were laws that Abraham followed, as a single legal document it was not in force.

Abraham had to obey only what God had specifically commanded, and the Sabbath was not demanded in the period covered by the Book of Genesis. And what was not required of Abraham was of major significance to the Apostle Paul. Circumcision became a very important command to ancient Israel, but Paul made it clear that Abraham became the father of the faithful, even before he was circumcised (Romans 4:9–13). One does not have to be circumcised to be a Christian.

It is also true that Abraham became the father of the faithful long before God commanded the Sabbath to be kept. We can all be Christians without being circumcised, and we can also be Christians without keeping the Mosaic Sabbath. This does not mean that one should denigrate the Sabbath as a day of rest. But all must understand that its observance or non-observance has nothing to do with the salvation afforded by Christ. Abraham became the father of the faithful — the father of the Christian faithful — long before the Sabbath became a physical requirement for the nation of Israel. We can follow in the footsteps of Abraham and have his same type of faith for salvation without keeping the Mosaic Sabbath. The word of God makes this plain. 3

It is hoped that all of us are willing to walk in that word and in the faith of Abraham. Salvation is guaranteed to us through Christ without any physical ceremony being necessary.

Ernest L. Martin, 1975
Edited by David Sielaff, January 2010

1 The first commandment God gave anywhere in Scripture was His commandment to Adam in Genesis 2:16–17 regarding the trees of the Garden, specifically that Adam should not eat of the tree of good and evil because he will die if he does so. DWS

2 The ordinary word sabbath in Hebrew is not always associated with the 7th day of the week. It simply means rest or cease. The context must determine whether the reference is to the 7th day of the week. ELM

3 See Dr. Martin’s presentation „The Priorities of God.” DWS

SDG, nisi u pravu. Proučavanje Bibljije i traženje istine (ovo što je navedeno je samo jedan primerak) i kroz to šta mi govori moja savest, došla sam do tog zaključka.
A svako ko drugačije misli, ima pravo tako da misli.

SDG, nisam videla pitanje, nije namerno, nego nažalost ne stignem sve pročitati.
Mislim da smo već višeputa imali analize teme subote, za mene je tema subota definitivno završena.

Želim ti Mir Božiji