Дискусије : Историја

 Коментар
Ko su Tocharoi ili Tochari
Fishbed
(pivopija)
25. август 2009. у 16.09
O njima znam da su indoevropski narod.Britanica kaže da i mumije pronadene u kini stare 2000 do 4000 godina pripadaju njima.
Danilov
(student)
25. август 2009. у 16.30
fishbed
(pivopija)
25. август 2009. у 17.06
Hvala!
spasic
(spasitelj)
31. август 2009. у 06.43
Po kinezima se radi o narodu imenom Yuezhi.

Opisuju se slični Skitima(ili sličan Iranski narod).
I trpaju ih u Iransko Indijske narode ne Slovenske.

„The Tukharis were a people or tribe widely spread all over Central Asia right from Kansu up to Rha (Volga) in the west and from Issyk-Kul to the valley of Hindukush in the south, a fact established by both, the early Chinese and Greek sources. We notice in Pliny and Ptolemy as saying that a people called Togarae crossed the Tanais-Don (Jaxartes) from east to west with other ”Scyths„[22]; they even knew the sojourn of Tochari in the lake Issyk-kul and of their crossing the Jaxartes southward.[23] The Chinese knew, the remnant of a people in second century B.C. who lived in a city on the 'Silk Route' with the same name in and around Kan-su and had moved to the west[24], and, according to Tibetan documents, there lived a people called Thod-kar, or Phod-kar, identified by F. W. Thomas and others with the same 'Tukhari'[25]. The occurance of the one name in the form ”Ttaugara„, ”Tho-kar„ in the east and of ”Tokhara„ or ”Tochara„ in the west used by one people, would suffice to prove that they were a widely spread people and they carried the name with themselves wherever they went. As the name is found in places too remote for it to be possible of a foreign origin, it was evidently their native name brought from their original home (Eastern Turkistan)[26].

However, the form ”To-huo-Io„ meaning Tukharistan appears in the Chinese annals first in the fifth century A.C. In the History of the T'ang we read about the country of Tukhari that it was situated of the Ts'ng-ling mountains (Pamir), south of the r’ver wu-hu (Wakhan-Oxus). The Ch’nese also ‘dentify it with the country of Ta-Hia-Da-Hae (Great Hia) of the time of the Han period. In the seventh and eight centuries the kingdom of Tu-huo-lo repeatedly sent embassies to the Chinese Court[27]. St. Martin and Julien identify Tukhara of the later period with Ephtahalites (Haital), the Chinese Yatha,[28] a branch of Yue-ti (Yueh-chih); according to ”Shu„ and ”Sui-shu„ Tukharas have been the small Yue-ti and the Yatha and Tukharians lived together, but the former were nomads, while the later town dewellers[29].

The country of Tukhhari to which the Chinese records, as well as Hsuang-tsang give the remarkable name ”Tu-huo-lo,„ either by the name of lukhara or Tukharistan, or by that of Haitals continued for centuries as fragments of an extinct kingdom, the former name surviving the later upto the Muslim periods; it became almost obsolete about the the time of the Mongol dominion in the thirteenth century[30].”
Danilov
(student)
31. август 2009. у 10.22
Tohari ili Sarbi -Xianbei nisu Sloveni.
Po Renfrew-u Tohari su pre 7000 odselili sa Balkana na Istok preko ruskih stepa i stigli do Sibira.
Postoji verovatnoca da je jedna grupa Tohara preko Aljaske stigla u Ameriku.

The many Shizhu (scholar aristocracy) of Tang dynasty were of Xianbei originals. They were sinifized Xianbei to be more precise. The Xianbei were not turkic people

History of Xianbei

The Xianbei (鲜卑) is a group of nomadic people/tribe that dwelled in north-east China in ancient times (around 300 AD). These northern people were, strictly speaking, not considered turkic people. They were one of the tribes that originated from the ancient eastern Hu people 东胡人 (around 200 BC) and who migrated to the Xianbei mountain in the north-east China (Manchuria region). Thereafter due to the name of „Xianbei” region/mountain, they came to be known as the „Xianbei” people.

The Xianbei were once subjected to the rule of the XiongNu (匈奴), a northern people who dominated Mongolia and Northern China from 250 BC - 300 AD. Due to several migration westwards and southwards to inner mongolia, about 100,000 XiongNu joined the migration. The Xianbei later mixed wtih the XiongNu, Dingling (丁零), Wuhuan (乌桓), han-chinese etc. to form different new groups [Dingling was an ancient turkic people, while Wuhuan was one of the tribes originating from eastern Hu people]. The main new groups formed include Eastern Xianbei (东部鲜卑) and Tuoba Xianbei (拓跋鲜卑).

Out of the Eastern Xianbei, tribes such as Yuwen tribe (宇文部), Duan tribe (段部), Murong tribe (幕容部) started migrating southwards and established several kingdoms during the Age of Fragmentation (from 300 AD onwards).

The Tuoba Xianbei, on the other hand, was a result of a mix between the original Xianbei and the XiongNu. According to research, 'Tuoba' means (in northern language) 'descendents of Xianbei father and XiongNu mother'. Ever since han dynasty, the Tuoba Xianbei started migrating southwards towards inner China and absorbed some of the han-chinese's culture. They later developed into a strong northern people.

In 386 AD, Tuoba Xianbei established the Northern Wei kingdom. Northern Wei later conquer all the various states in northern China during the Age of Fragmentation and in 439 AD unifed the whole of Northern China. Together with the Liu-Song in the south, China entered into the north-south dynasties period.
From then onwards, these northern nomads began to change their lifestyles from that of nomadics to agriculture.

In 471 AD, Northern Wei's Emperor Xiao Wendi (孝文帝) was enthroned. Because he was only 5 years old, his Grandma Empress Feng (冯太后) took charge of the court. She was the 1st han-chinese lady to be crowned as Northern Wei's Empress and she carried out a large political and economic reform, including a gradual sinification policy that convert the Xianbei to han-chinese, and from nomads to farmers. When Emperor Xiao Wendi came into power at the age of 24, he carried out an even more thorough sinification policy .

The sinification policy of Emperor Xiao Wendi includes:

1. Move of capital from Chengpin (in Shanxi province) to Luoyang. This caused a million Xianbei and other northern people to migrate to central China.

2. The costumes of the Xianbei and other „hu” people were forbidden.

3. The Xianbei language was forbidden and not to be spoken in the court. Only the han-language was allowed

4. He ordered that the family names of Tuoba xianbei to be changed to that of Han.

5. He encouraged Xianbei to marry and mix with Han-chinese. He himself ordered his han-chinese generals to marry their daughters to his 6 brothers.

The Northern Wei lasted for 1/2 century. In 534, it splitted into Eastern Wei and Western Wei. Later, from these two dynasties came the northern Qi and Northern Zhou, who were founded by Xianbeinized Han-chinese „Gao” and Yuwen. All of these were later unified by Sui dynasty. The Xianbei and other northern people such as XiongNu, Wuhuan etc later all become part of the han-chinese.
Many of the great people of Sui and Tang dynasty were descendents of sinifized Xianbei people.

For the founder of Sui dynasty, the mother/wive's side the Yang family were sinifized Xianbei.

As for the founder of Tang dynasty, the mother/wive's side of the Li Family were also sinifized Xianbei. As for their prime ministers, there were about 20 sinifized Xianbei.

http://chinahistoryforum.com/lofiversion/index.php/t307.html

Danilov
(student)
02. септембар 2009. у 09.12
R1a je indo-evropski (toharski-indo-iranski-tracanski..) gen.
Gen je pronadjen kod Indijanaca Kostarike.

R1a male lineages are also found scattered in significant amounts extending out of these central areas. It has been found as far East as Siberia, where a native presence have been found in Kamchatka and Chukotka, for example 22% amongst the Itel'man. (One R1a-M17 was even found in a sample of 21 Guaymi from Costa Rica.)[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a_(Y-DNA)
Danilov
(student)
02. септембар 2009. у 12.44
Guaymi Kostarike-drugaciji su od ostalih Indijanaca-vidi se na snimku..

http://www.tangle.com/view_video?viewkey=d1a2357876d6f282746e
pavlimir_ratnik
(Edukator)
02. септембар 2009. у 13.24
Opet su moderatori zaspali, brisite ovog Jojbolija sa diskusija ,da ne vredja ljude , i to tako postene diskutante,kao sto je Danilov,koji svaku svoju tvrdnju potkrepi.
cuvar-plamena
(xxx)
03. септембар 2009. у 00.10
Svaka cast Pavlimire.Treba imati zivce od celika i zeludac koji vari mravlju kiselinu pa razgovarati sa ovim kroatima i kroatofilima.
Skidam kapu.
mandalina
(vila)
08. септембар 2009. у 14.21

Spasić:
„The Tukharis were a people or tribe widely spread all over Central Asia right from Kansu up to Rha (Volga) in the west and from Issyk-Kul to the valley of Hindukush in the south, a fact established by both, the early Chinese and Greek sources.
...
Vezano za dolinu Hindukuša, često je citirana recenica ruskog istoričara Moroskina (nemam pri ruci originalni naziv knjige)da na Hindukušu živi surov narod, odeven u kože, pod imenom Sjamskrisza ili Srba.
U Spasićevom citatu na engleskom reka RA (današnja Volga)je zanimljiva. ”
mandalina
(vila)
08. септембар 2009. у 19.18
Ispravka> Sjemskrita ili Srba

Nisadeš, divni i nepristupačni vrh, stan bogova po indijskoj religiji, bio je prva srpska postojbina. Citat iz Ritera, na strani 29, glasi: „Sa vrha Mera (brdo u Indiji) pružaju se njegove grane kao Himavat, Henakutaš, Nisadeš, na kojima je živeo surovi i odeven u odelo od kože narod Serba ili Srba”.
Znači da su Srbi prvobitno živeli na prostorima između himalajskih i hindokuskih planina, preko šest hiljada godina pre Hrista.

Ruski istoričar Moroskin ističe da su ostali narodi bili zavidni prema Srbima, koji su nastanjivali oblast Dunaj u Indiji. On takođe navodi da su u unutrašnjosti Indije bile države Prazija, Gangazija i Sarbarska (Srpska), a u primorskom delu oblast koja se zvala Panovska. O postojanju te dve srpske države nađeni su zapisi kod Aleksandra Velikog. To ukazuje na mogućnost da imena Dunava i Panonije nose takođe poreklo iz Indije (ili obratno)...Po Moroskinu prvi ogranak Srba iselio se iz Indije u pravcu Mesopotamije, oko reka Eufrata i Tigra, gde su osnovali svoju Novu Sabarsku državu, na tlu danasnjeg Iraka. Tamosnji gradovi nazvani su srpskim imenima, a o istima postoje i dan danas neka svedocanstva. Dolazak Srba u Mesopotamiju datira oko tri hiljade godina pre Hrista i tu su se zadrzali najmanje oko jedan milenijum. Od tih Srba potomci su se proširili u Malu Aziju, a nešto kasnije odatle su presli i u Evropu. Delimicno su se nastanjivali i u Egiptu.(др.Симо Јелача)

Russian author Moroskin writes in his book „Istoricko-kriteceskija izsledovnija o Rusah i slovijanah” page. 163-173.:

„From the Himalayas to the Hidukushki mountains lived the Serbian peoples, under the name Syemskrita or Serbs”.

The writer states that the local inhabitants had been mesmerised and respected highly the Syemba or Serba, who resided in this region called Dunayski. Inside India, the main countries of the Serbs were Praziya, Gangaria and the great Sabarska. Another Serb country based on the coast of India was called Panonska or Panonia. Moroskin states that the Serb kingdom in India was regarded as the highest level of might, multi-spectrums of education and enlightenment.

Danilov
(student)
11. септембар 2009. у 17.09
Mandalina-najnovija arheoloska ispitivanja-genetska ispitivanja-najsavremenije metode u pracenju razvoja indo-evropskih jezika u Istoriji-negiraju postavku da je Indija prapostojbina Indo-Evropskih naroda i Srba.
Od svih hipoteza o prapostojbini Indo-Evropljana i Srba ostale su dve-Kurganova hipoteza o ukrajinsko -ruskim stepama i Anatolska hipoteza o Balkanu kao kolevki Srba i svih Indo- Evropljana.
Broj zagovornika anatolske hipoteze je u porastu.
Ruske stepe su nepristupacne i daleko je surovija klima nego na Balkanu.
Balkan je pre 5000 godina bio najgusce naseljeni deo Sveta-zbog povoljne klime i velikog broja recnih tokova.
Genetska ispitivanja pokazuju da preko 35% Sveta vodi poreklo iz Trakije i Makedonije.
Balkanski deo države Aleksandra Makedonskog je brojao 5 miliona stanovnika.
Spasic
(spasitelj)
15. септембар 2009. у 08.05
Mandalina šta znaci Sar Bar na Persijskom?

I u kojim kontekstima se znacenja tih reci koriste gramaticki u persijskom jeziku?
mandalina
(vila)
15. септембар 2009. у 20.56
Danilove, ja lično mislim da je prapostojbina ovde-Podunavlje (predlepenski period, lepenski whirl, vinča itd..)..Imalu vise od 3milenijuma da se prošire do istoka i posvuda,,,a posle su se vracali i mesali, neki od njih , ne svi.Nikada nisam mislila da je Indija prapostojbina.I same vede kažu da su se sinovi Arjune pojavili niotkuda, odjednom, bili, pevali i ..otišli..

Spasiću, najkraci prevod je Glavosek,Glavoseča.. onaj koji macem isece protivniku glavu..cut-throat (cutter of heads) or Supreme Mighty man who is cutter ..Zmajevi sa repovima moraju bas tako da se uniste.
I nas junak Nebojša, spašava Vidu od zlog Bas-celika (kome narodna priča pripisuje vanzemaljsko poreklo) uz pomoć cudotvornog maca kojim može da ga posece i presece.Isti Persijanci (i njihovi potomci danas) imaju kao lična imena Nešu i Vidu

Na staropersijskom SAR znači glavu, vladara, zrelost, prvenstvo, nezavisnost..dok persijsko BAR (ili BARE u SARBARE ) znači komadić, odrezak..
Ovo je istoričar Milojević primetio, kod njega sam videla, posle proverila po net-rečnicima persijskog.
Na ovom forumu sam imala temu sa detaljnim izvodima iz persijskogf recnika, potrazi ili ću ja kad stignem.

Ovo nije Sarbar, nego staropersijski vojnik. pešak, u lepim opancima.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y237/aryamehr11/Ancient%20Iranian%20Soldiers/prehistorywarrior.jpg

mandalina
(vila)
15. септембар 2009. у 21.01
Nasla! Tražio si u kom kontekstu koriste?
Oko sredine teme, moj tekst od 22.februara 2009.

http://www3.serbiancafe.com/lat/diskusije/mesg/21/013401786/srbizmi-u-persijskom-jeziku.html?37
Spasic
(spasitelj)
19. септембар 2009. у 09.13
Sar bar

Sve ovizno od upotrebe te dve reci u nekom kontestu, ima svoje znacenje, znaci može se dosta znacenja izvuci.

Sar Bar svasta može znaciti poglavica, osoba(persona).

Sar Bar dar sadan, znaci lupati glavom o zid(ovo možda ima veze sa nama)

Sar Bar Suraiya, znaci covek sa ponosom.

Sar Bar khat dashtan, biti poslusan

Sar Bar kardan, revoltirati, biti revoltan.

Sar Bar giri, ili Sar bar tan, putovati

Sarayidan bar sar, to speak in tounges:)

Sar Bar Sari je neka ruzna reč koji Zaratustrijanac nije hteo da mi objasni:).

Nego generalno Sar znaci glava
Bar doduse, nema neko znacenje ko reč sama za sebe, već mora biti u kontekstu sa drugom reci.

Sem ovde.

Bar a bar, grudi uz grudi, jednako, izvagano, ravno

Ali već bar a bar shudan znaci, slagati se
dok sar za sebe znaci glava.

i može se tako nastaviti do beskraja, u svakom slučaju izlgeda ko bogat jezik.
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